How to Staff a Hotel amid a Global HR Crisis, with Chartok’s Joan Sanz

Episode Transcript

Joan Sanz: We are pulling talent out of other industries in order to cover what we lost during the pandemic. We’re having people from industries that were not even close to hospitality because people that was working in hospitality is no longer thinking to come back. So that’s one of the direct impacts. We can see that they are hiring people from H.R. or people from psychology or people that were teachers, all kind of people, which was just rethinking what to do during the pandemic. There are just exploring, traveling around the world and one of the easiest jobs to get when you travel is in the hospitality industry going out.

Robin Trimingham: Welcome to the Innovative Hotelier podcast by Hotels magazine with weekly thought provoking discussions with the world’s leading hotel and hospitality innovators. Welcome to the innovative hotelier brought to you by Hotels magazine. I’m your host, Robin Trimingham. Over the last two years, we’ve frequently heard about hoteliers all around the world struggling to attract and retain staff. Now that the pandemic is over, I thought it would be interesting to take a look at some of the HR issues that boutique hotels and independents are experiencing, and to take a look at some of the HR trends in 2023. My guest today, Joan Sanz, is the founder and CEO of Chart OK, a hotel operations software company based in Barcelona. And he’s here today to share some strategies for improving efficiency and keeping staff engaged. Join me now for my conversation with Joanne. For the last 50 years, Groupe GM has been a leader in the luxury cosmetic amenities industry. The group proposes a 360 solution from manufacturing to distribution with over 40 international brands in its worldwide distribution network. Groupe GM offers different shapes and sizes of eco friendly products in hotels all over the world. Discover more on www.groupegm.com. That’s Group with an E GM.com. Welcome, Joan. Thanks for joining me today.

Joan Sanz: Hi, Robin. Thank you so much for inviting us.

Robin Trimingham: Well, I think that this is going to be a fascinating conversation because I always love talking to people who are developing what I’m going to call new technology. So we better start off, though. Can you briefly explain what is Chart OK. And what led you to establish this company?

Joan Sanz: Fantastic. Yes. Well, thank you so much again for inviting us. Chart. Okay. Is an internal collaboration software. Let’s be honest, it’s there are many tools out there that hoteliers are managing to communicate across multiple departments. And normally they use so many tools that we were working, all of us in the company with hotels for hotels and developing technologies for hotels as well. And we understood that there was no category that was leading something farther than the housekeeping and maintenance. Of course, we agree that there are many tools that are managing housekeeping and maintenance, but when it comes to operations, hotel chains, marketing, front desk, hotel management, revenue management, e-commerce and standard operating procedures that are totally understandable by hotels in one single place where they can actually just write down a single test and all of those tasks will come up and they will be there for any technology across the industry and for any specific hotel department that doesn’t exist in that way. You can use any tool. You can organize your company in any way, but when it comes to centralizing all of those procedures that you can build yourself or they can be out there from any company, we are gathering together and we are making it easy for hotels from any size and any structure to put it together and simplify internal communications.

Robin Trimingham: I think that’s something that’s very much needed. I have a little bit of background with this. When I used to work in the hotel industry myself, they were just starting to play around with this idea and we were using things like the chat feature on your phone, and that was great because everybody might have got the message if they were in the group, but things were layered one on top of the other, and it could be housekeeping now and in-room dining the next. And then a problem with a guest. And there was just no way at all to sort it out. So tell me your work brings you in regular contact with small and medium sized hoteliers all across Europe. What would you say are the top three HR issues that hoteliers are dealing with at the current time?

Joan Sanz: That’s a very common problem for many. I believe, based on our experience and my experience, which is number one, turnover, which is how often employees are in need of going out there and search for the best talent within the hospitality industry. Of course, there is a lot of people out there, but when you need something specifically, they are actually having a great job or they are trying to go to another industry because they have the second problem, which is they are not getting paid enough. So that’s one of the second challenges that I think is becoming a challenge for the HR managers. Employees are looking for a better salary, let’s be honest, and that’s the second one. And the third one I will say, which is connecting everyone on a daily basis because there is a percentage based on many industries which says that seven out of ten people don’t have access to an internal corporate email or a PC or any other kind of technologies. So basically that’s a very important challenge right now.

Robin Trimingham: Yeah, you’re absolutely right, because if you don’t have a frontline job or one of the office jobs, then you’re moving around the hotel all day long. Where would you put the laptop? It really has to be something that works with your phone. I read a recent article when I was getting ready for this interview that you said, basically a hotel manager is now like a college dean and that you need to handle technology, train staff and manage the well-being of others all at the same time. Why do you say this?

Joan Sanz: Yeah, well, actually, I’m a teacher today. I work in the education industry and I see professionals within the education industry having to become more and more like a not just a teacher. Or they are more like a manager. They have to also train people how to better communicate on a daily basis. Of course, when you hire someone, there is a whole process where you need to train them to speak the same language and the same communication. That happens inside an organization which is a new structure, new tools to get trained on new technologies that they use, which are totally different across multiple hotel categories or hotel accommodations or size. And that becomes the challenge for the hotel manager, which is the responsible or operations, because let’s be honest, sometimes the HR manager is the same hotel manager or the hotel manager is the HR manager. They hire people, they train people, they motivate people, they teach people. So that was something like an example I was trying to transmit with this publication I made because of course, they are not just a hotel manager. They pay bills, they hire, they connect with the accountants. They have to pay taxes at the end of the month. There are so many things at the same time. And then, I mean, they need to learn math. They need to learn communications. They need to learn emotional skills. Oh, wow. Emotional skills. There are so many things that a hotel manager or hotel operation managers, they need to handle that. That was one of the main reasons why I came up with this idea.

Robin Trimingham: I think that’s an excellent insight because some of us, we come from the big brand world where HR is on one floor, one wing of the hotel, and of course the general manager is in a completely different place. And maybe they touch base once in a blue moon. But you’re right, that’s not the same thing in a boutique hotel where the hotel manager may be doing all of the HR functions and three other jobs all at the same time.

Joan Sanz: And even more now, even more now. Because if you think about how many people have not stayed connected during the pandemic with their jobs and they left this industry, now the same hotel manager is having more responsibilities because maybe the HR left or maybe somebody who was in charge of something is no longer working at the organization and they have assumed this responsibility that is on their shoulders. So totally. You’re totally right.

Robin Trimingham: So let me ask you another question then. How would you say all of this is impacting guest categories such as leisure and wellness? Is that having an impact on staffing?

Joan Sanz: Oh, 100%. We have been managing communications for hotels within the last two, three years, including the pandemic time, and we have seen some employees switching from industries basically imagine that you now need talent no matter where, and they were working in other industries and now they come to the hotel without understanding the hotel industry. Right. Because we are pulling talent out of other industries in order to cover what we lost during the pandemic. So that’s one of the impacts which is happening. We are we’re having people from industries that were not even close to hospitality because people that was working in hospitality is no longer thinking to come back. So that’s one of the direct impacts. We can see that they are hiring people from HR or people from psychology or people that were teachers, all kind of people, which was just rethinking what to do during the pandemic. They are just exploring, traveling around the world. And one of the easiest jobs to get when you travel is in the hospitality industry. So you are hiring people from abroad, which is not close to your local culture, which doesn’t understand your language 100%. And so there are so many challenges that are happening right now, which is something that is transforming the industry in some good way, but also is having some challenges in this. At the same time.

Robin Trimingham: Another excellent point, because in the EU it’s very easy for people to move from one country to the next, from one job to the next. And that’s something in North America that I think maybe we lose sight of because we tend to work a lot inside our own country with all of this. Before the pandemic, we had a situation where hotels, they were all about training. Everything was, oh, you’re going to go for another training for this? Oh, there’s a new session for that. And then during the pandemic, of course, except maybe for health and safety, all of these things, they got put on hold. And with all these new workers and all of this lapsed training, what are some of the biggest HR issues that you’re seeing now as a result of all of that?

Joan Sanz: That’s an easy answer. There haven’t been time for training. Yeah, there haven’t been time for people to actually hold and rethink how to go ahead and plan a new strategy. We have been on the top of a rush trying to hire people, trying not to lose people and trying to keep people trained, which was the last thought that they had on their mind. We need to put things together again in Europe, since I will not be afraid to say maybe September, October again. That was like where when they slowed down. But actually things haven’t slowed down 100% because since the pandemic things have been going so fast that they haven’t had enough time. Of course, training is going to come whenever they have steady operations, which I think they haven’t had that time. And once that comes is when things like things will start happening again like that, what you just said, let’s train people, let’s prepare education, not just online education. I think in real life, education in real world, sending people to get together, bringing trainers to the hotel and train people in real time. I think that’s what’s going to happen next. In that sense, I agree.

Robin Trimingham: That’s absolutely the best way you’re making me think of another question that I’d love to ask you. I’ve been hearing a lot that a lot of the old hotel brands, some of the boutique ones, they’re all being bought up in Europe at the present time. So I would imagine that also is having a big impact on HR and things like training. If you have a boutique that’s suddenly coming under a brand logo for the very first time.

Joan Sanz: Yeah, well, in Europe, which I’m based in Spain right now, I’m based in Barcelona, we can see that it’s starting to happen, that these brands are rethinking how to work in the future as an independent hoteliers or potentially having a very impactful, impactful brand. For example, I just heard an idea the other day, sustainability is something that some brands are looking to put together to their brands. So if somebody comes with an amazing and powerful message when it comes to sustainability and other things that are actually important for those small hoteliers, I think that’s when the change will come. But if they don’t have any value or anything new, that will adapt to the new. Future of the tourism and how to deploy easy technologies. For example, something that doesn’t become like a legacy industry full of old technologies. You need something to convince hoteliers, which are independent hoteliers. You need something innovative but at the same time adapted to this new era of the hospitality.

Robin Trimingham: Did you know that offering top cosmetic brands is a delight for your guests? For the last 50 years, Groupe GM has been a leader in the luxury amenity industry. The group proposes a 360 solution for manufacturing to distribution on cosmetic amenities and dry accessories, with over 40 international brands such as Guerlain, Nukes, Atelier Cologne. The group offers different shapes and sizes of eco friendly products in hotels all over the world. This is possible thanks to its worldwide distribution network. Thanks to their Care about the Earth Program, you can offer your guests top cosmetic products with a reduced environmental impact. Discover more on www.GroupeGm.com. That’s group with an E Gm.com. You just used the key word technology that kind of leads me to my next question. Obviously, over the last year, we’ve seen all kinds of brand new technology, all kinds of new AI driven applications entering the marketplace. But there’s also been this thing out there called Chat GPT, and I even have trouble saying it. It’s so new. What sort of implications for HR do you foresee in this regard?

Joan Sanz: This happens very often in every industry. And now one of the things that is happening with Chatgpt is that it’s not just affecting one industry. It’s taking is covering every industry around the world. If I speak for just hospitality, I want I won’t be right. Honestly, in a macro way, I can say that A, I won’t take your job. If somebody’s managing AI, that will. I think that we are so afraid of this, but we are not getting ready to understand this. That’s the only difference. We need to jump on the top of it and we need to go behind the wheels and ride that car, which is actually taking a new lead of jobs across every single industry, including hospitality, including hospitality.

Robin Trimingham: I’m asking everybody about this because I think there’s a real tendency in the hotel industry to kind of resist the introduction of new technology. In some ways, I think it’s fair to say that employees entering the workforce, wherever they’re coming from, are some of the most educated, tech savvy people to ever have lived. And it really doesn’t mean a matter what industry we’re talking about. We happen to be talking about hotels. Why do you think then that it’s even more essential for employers to provide meaningful work for these highly skilled people?

Joan Sanz: This is a personal comment that I’m going to make now. Okay. I don’t think that we should wait for the employers to cover those needs as employees. We need to find those answers or self and train ourselves because if you wait until the employee has the knowledge or the skills or the time or the investment for you to do it, you’re going to go out of the market as an employee. So this is a message for people who is out there. They need to go ahead and reskill themself, upskill themself, not just wait until the employees do take an initiative for them. So I don’t think every single company will be conscious in the next five years. It will be too busy to jump on the top of it. So that’s why this is a message for the people. And I say this as a teacher, I see people getting trained. I train people, I do direct consulting. I train people just for the university I work for because they want to get up to date individual people, not companies and also companies, but more people than companies are approaching to us. So I see that as a really, really smart way to take advantage of this situation right now, not just within the company. You’re taking the lead.

Robin Trimingham: Yeah, I like what you’re saying. I think I agree with you. I think we all have a huge personal responsibility to keep pace with the rate of change, to be continually challenging ourselves, to grow and learn and to be everything that we possibly can be, whether or not the employer that we are currently with is a state of the art and cutting edge in these respects or not.

Joan Sanz: And right now it’s even easier than ever because right now there are so many free resources that there were not out there even before the pandemic, which is just for three and a half years, something like that. So and just also to mention, I have seen people at all ages. It’s getting trained. So I encourage also people who is thinking that they are out of the market because of their age, which is not true Now, so many great people, which is senior people, which they already understand this. And that’s why I say this. I have seen people which is highly skilled in so many things because they have so much year of experience that they outbid anyone else out there, which which is 20, 30, you know, And that’s something amazing in that sense. Yeah.

Robin Trimingham: Speaking on behalf of older people, I completely agree with you. Sometimes older workers really have the advantage because we’ve been through all the ups and downs and the pitfalls and the making, the mistakes along the way. And we do we value work. We like being engaged. We like being busy. And you’re absolutely right. When an older person decides, you know what, I’m going to learn this, I’m not going to let this get the better of me. That’s a person who is highly motivated and that’s a person who makes a fantastic employee. Totally. Um, let’s turn this around for a minute and talk about the other side of a couple of these things, okay? When people don’t fit in, when employers don’t take care of employees, when there is a big turnover and it’s kind of regardless of whether you’ve had to let staff go for whatever reason or whether people have left on their own to seek a better situation, what’s the real cost of all of this? What does the organization lose in terms of economic productivity every time you have to retrain somebody?

Joan Sanz: There are KPIs right now that we are actually measuring based on every single task or every single action which is made by a person, how often can be automated so their staff can be more productive. In that sense, we are measuring every day how people is actually more I don’t know how to say it, more hooked to technology and waiting for technology to do more. For example, we have heard of staff asking us for things that you should do that they want the technology to be able to do so they can have more time to do better things, which means for us, and this is a great question, that they have no time to do what they would like to do very often because they are too busy handling too many things and that doesn’t allow them to work actually or do something they actually enjoy. This is part of something which is what with it comes with the emotion emotions of the employer employees in that sense, because they have stress. I don’t have time to do things because I have to be busy doing those things. So I think one of the challenges that the employee employees, employers, right they need to handle is how do keep their their staff doing what they like to do, not just what they want them to do because they don’t have enough resources. I don’t know if that answers your question.

Robin Trimingham: No, but that’s a very interesting perspective because you’re right. In a hotel legacy system, if you have to do all the data entry manually, if you have to generate generate reports manually, that’s incredibly time consuming and it doesn’t free you up to spend more time with the guest, with the customer, with making sure that rooms are ready when they should be, and all of those kinds of things.

Joan Sanz: At the same time. The same problem is happening because there are less people working at the hotel. So you have more work because there is less people at the hotel. So basically you have to handle more things because there is less trained people because nobody else is next to you helping you or those juniors that were out there trying to help. You are no longer interested in the hospitality. And they this is the time that they are actually coming back because they saw no future during the pandemic as a joined as a youth professionals. Now we are recovering those students, those young generations jumping on the top of the hospitality industry. But before you had a lot of very highly motivated people with a lot of energy ready to do anything. But now you have 20 years of experience and you have to do things that you were doing 20 years ago when you had people that were getting trained for those reasons. So that’s one of the challenges right now. At the same time.

Robin Trimingham: One of the problems that hoteliers face in North America, and I don’t know if this is a thing in Spain or not, but sometimes finally a new piece of technology will get introduced and employees or the unions will be very, very suspicious, very, very reluctant to embrace this because they see this as something that is going to take away jobs or take away the old ways. What would you say to a hotelier that’s facing these kinds of issues?

Joan Sanz: Are you talking about? Chatgpt, for example. Right.

Robin Trimingham: Well, sure. That’s a great example. Yeah.

Joan Sanz: Let’s embrace it. If we go against it, like everything we try to do when we are having these forces that are actually moving forward and we have no way to stop it, we are going to fail. We need to learn how to use it. We need to take a position where we can actually take advantage of it. I can see many hotels right now using chatbots, trying to humanize their chat bots because they were too strict, like to automate, you know, like, oh, the same answer all the time. Now they are switching those tools. I can see people using hoteliers using phone conversations. That sounds like a human and it’s not the same answer all the time. It’s not like dial one for groups, dial two for reception. No, it’s something that is starting to talk to you and use these tools to try to monetize and make more profit out of it, because that’s the main goal of our industry. We need to make profit to become more sustainable and operationally company, operationally, operationally speaking. So let’s embrace it. I don’t think this is going to be a bad thing. I just need people to understand that if we think that this is going to be a danger for us, we are just thinking backwards, basically.

Robin Trimingham: I love your example of the chat bot because I think what some people don’t realize is that the chat bot can think very, very fast and it can make a supplemental suggestion that may or may not occur to you and me. Like it can say, Oh, I see you’re coming on Saturday. Well, did you know that we have a really great restaurant that has a special menu that night? Would you like a reservation and that fast? It’s offered something good that actually generates revenue and that the guest might very well appreciate.

Joan Sanz: Let me be honest with you. I think chat bots are great, but the population around the world is becoming older. Let’s be honest. Younger generations are not going as fast as old generations. So I think that the chat bot will be great, but there will be people who will need to have more humanized feelings with technologies like we are already in touch with Alexa, Siri and many other things are talking to us. So I think this is like the evolution of the chat bot in some way. People won’t be on the phone trying to chat with something. I think they will. The voice commerce and the AI through voice I think will be the next step in the best way because we need to keep trying not to become more robotic and trying to humanize the robotic processes which a chatbot does. So I think generations will lead that change, like people that that is not adapted to technology. So in that sense, I think of course selling more or offering better things, but with a human touch in the future, not just chat and something that, you know is a but in the future I think we will talk to things that I will really think they are humans, but they won’t be.

Robin Trimingham: So I think you’re right. All of this is in a state of evolution and it’s changing and transforming very, very rapidly. I think it’s going to be fascinating to see where everything is and maybe as little as five years. And where are we going to be investing in humans to serve other humans in a very, very meaningful way? Joan, this has been a great conversation. I want to thank you so much for your time today. You’ve been watching the innovative hotelier brought to you by Hotels magazine. Join us again soon for up to the minute insights and information specifically for the hotel and hospitality industry. Thank you. You’ve been listening to the Innovative Hotelier podcast by Hotels magazine. Join us again soon for more conversations with hospitality industry thought leaders.